Editors’ Note: This is the transcript version of the podcast we published last Wednesday with Drs. Ethan Russo and Dale Hunt. Please note that due to time and audio constraints, transcription may not be perfect. We encourage you to listen to the podcast, embedded below, if you need any clarification. We hope you enjoy!
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Rena Sherbill: Welcome again to the Cannabis Investing Podcast where we speak with C-level executives, scientists, and law and sector experts to provide actionable investment insight and the context with which to understand the burgeoning cannabis industry. I’m your host, Rena Sherbill.
Happy Wednesday, everybody. Welcome back to the show. As always great to have you listening. Really excited about today’s guests. Dr. Ethan Russo and Dale Hunt, who has a PhD. If anyone is following the cannabis industry for a while knows the kind of work that Ethan and Dale have done to benefit really the plant itself and people’s understanding of it.
Dale and Ethan get into their respective journeys and what they were focused on independently before they synergistically, as Dale and Ethan describe it, came together to form with Robert Clarke, Breeder’s Best, which is the first cannabis company that focuses on protecting the IP for independent cannabis plant Breeder’s, and then licensing that IP for access to markets. And this is done globally.
And they discuss more about what their business model is, how it’s – they liking it to the music industry and what they’re giving to Breeder’s and how important it is. And I would definitely agree to get Breeder’s access and a seat at the table, as everybody knows is salient to further development and Breeder’s really left out of a lot of the profits that have come the way of the cannabis industry.
Dale and Ethan and Robert, who doesn’t join this, but is one of the three founders how they’ve joined together each with their own respective levels and areas of expertise to create this. Obviously given both Dale and Ethan’s background coming from the medical and the plant background discussing, you know, endocannabinoids and how they work with body receptors?
What the entourage effect is at the molecular level? It gets thrown around a lot, but hearing from somebody like Dr. Ethan Russo describe it and the components involved and how they discuss the future of medicine and the future of discovery that we’ve really only barely touched the power that is in what Dale calls the biochemical treasure trove that is the cannabis plant.
So, for plant lovers, for people that love cannabis, not just making a profit, this is really a great episode to understand more about cannabis and the cannabinoids we have to look forward to, the research that they’re doing, the research that they’re discovering, the research that is being done, to further the knowledge, to further the innovation, and then of course to further the benefits for people for consumers for patients, for animals, a lot many different things and industrial uses hemp not just the cannabis plant that’s the cannabinoids and the THC, but hemp based industrial products that are already beginning to change paradigms and we’ll definitely continue to do so.
And as I believe every guest we’ve ever had on has said and Dale and Ethan say as well, and I echo is, you know, the train has left the station, cannabis is here. And so just exciting to understand from a more scientific from a more botanical from a more medically focused, plant focused understanding of cannabis, and what it can do and really excited to get into all these topics and hear from two real rock stars of the industry and hope you enjoy, great to have you listening.
And before we begin, a brief disclaimer. Nothing on this podcast should be taken as investment advice of any sort. And in my model cannabis portfolio, I’m long Trulieve, Khiron, GrowGeneration, Curaleaf, Vireo Health and Isracann BioSciences. You can subscribe to us on Libsyn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, and Stitcher.
So, we have Dr. Ethan Russo and Dale Hunt on the show today. I am really excited to have them on the show for Cannabis Aficionado. You may have heard of them. You may have known about them already, but for listeners who are new to them, this is an exciting conversation that I’m excited to share with you. So, Ethan and Dale, welcome to the cannabis investing podcast. Really happy to have you on.
Dale Hunt: Thank you.
Ethan Russo: Thank you.
RS: Well, thank you guys for joining us. So, as I said, many people will already know you, but I’d love to hear from both of you, how you got into the cannabis sector to begin with?
DH: Okay, well, I started with a background as a plant scientist. I studied botany as an undergrad and did a master’s in genetics and a PhD in Molecular and Cellular Biology. By then I knew I didn’t want to be a professor. So, I went to law school. I studied intellectual property law, as well as general law at Berkeley and then have been an IP attorney full time since 1996. My practice has always involved working with plant breeders. Initially, it was in – mostly in the fruit and flower industries. But I started working in cannabis about seven years ago, and have had an increasing interaction with lots of parts of the cannabis community, but especially with plant breeders.
RS: Okay, Ethan, you want to go ahead?
ER: Sure. Well, my training is as a neurologist, but I had always had an issue. interest in medicinal plants, which got submerged for a time in my career, but even as a physician, I was doing things like growing organically for the local farmers market in Missoula, Montana. Somewhere around 1990, I had a sort of crisis of confidence and what I was doing, and that I felt like I was giving increasingly more toxic drugs to patients with fewer and fewer benefits. So, my solution to this was to get back into incorporating medicinal plants into my practice and studying ethnobotany.
So, after taking night classes in Spanish, I eventually found myself twice in Peru in 1994, and then for three months on sabbatical in 1995 working with a Machiguenga tribe in the Amazon jungle. When I got back, I knew that I wanted to make medicinal plants, the focus of my career. But it took some time. That being by then 1996, I quickly became embroiled in the cannabis controversy on attempted to do clinical trials of cannabis.
First a study migraine, but ran into the usual roadblocks to research from the Federal Government. Along the way, I became aware of GW Pharmaceuticals (NASDAQ:GWPH) when they were beginning their cannabis pharmaceutical development program. And the year they began in 1998, I was asked to be a scientific adviser, which I did for five years and then I was full time as senior medical advisor within the company and the development of Sativex and Epidiolex. So, basically, at this point, I’ve been working in the cannabis space for 24 years. All in an effort to make cannabis safer and better, which certainly remains one of our missions at Breeder’s Best.
RS: I’m interested given both of your backgrounds and where you’re coming from respectively. Before we get into Breeder’s Best and I also want to talk to you Ethan a little bit about your pivot or your, you know, moving on from GW Pharma, and that choice there, but talking about cannabis, the plan, and I would guess that you both consider it a medicine above all, would you say that that’s correct?
ER: I certainly would.
DH: Yeah. I look at it certainly as a medicine, but also just as a biochemical treasure trove that is largely as yet unexplored, and that we are only beginning to understand and so as a, I’d say, as a plant scientist, what we know it can do has tremendous medical benefit, but we are literally only beginning to understand the capacity the plant has.
RS: Would you say that with the, you know, further discovery of all these different cannabinoids that are slowly and quickly, I guess both at the same time coming to, you know, the fore and coming to the public’s attention and soon it will be, I would imagine in products after more research and development, with those developments, do you think that with each new cannabinoid that’s discovered we are going to discover further and further about the plan and about what it can do for people and living creatures in general, I guess?
ER: Ah, sure. Absolutely. You know basically, for many decades, particularly the federal government push the idea that the pharmacology of cannabis was all about THC, the exclusion of everything else. That really was never true and it’s become evident to the general public with the advent of cannabidiol CBD, which has become quite the rage in the last 10 years. However, it remains the case that we’ve only scratched the surface of the potential in the plant. As versatile as CBD is, we still have a situation in the industry of a very constricted situation with really utter lack of diversity.
Basically, what we see on the market is Chemovars, chemical varieties of cannabis that are high in THC, generally very high in myrcene, a sedating terpenoid or alternatively high in CBD now, and also high in myrcene. This neglects the fact that the plant makes some 500 chemicals. There are at least 150 cannabinoids, each of them that have been discovered so far, and we really only know the pharmacology of about a dozen, but each of them has unique pharmacological properties that are very valuable. And what’s amazing is almost all of them are quite safe, really lacking and particularly toxicity on, and I guess we’d have to make sort of an exception for THC because we know that it does have side effects when it’s not used properly, but for the most part, this is a very benign set of chemicals that has great therapeutic properties.
Then additionally, we’ve got some 200 different terpenoids in cannabis that have been noted and many of these have synergistic properties when combined with the cannabinoids. So, the potential is limitless. And we really haven’t capitalized on that as yet. And this remains one of the things that we’d like to remedy as we go forward.
DH: Yeah, and I would just add to that, that, you know, we look at – our interaction with the plant is via the endocannabinoid system, as well as other receptors in the body. And receptors very commonly work together to signal different physiological changes, Gene activation, or gene suppression and a lot of things like that. And as we look at you people talk about the entourage effect, at the molecular level, the entourage effect really is the interactions of different things, binding different receptors, and then interacting with each other such that it’s not even just which elements are there, but in what kinds of amounts and what kinds of ratios and how it is delivered, and how much of is delivered. And so, what we still have to learn and what I’m so excited about is, what all of these different interactions can do in the body and for patients and for other kinds of users. And to me, this is just – we’re at the very frontier of the future of medicine. I really believe that.
RS: I believe it too. I believe it too. I think that we have exciting things coming and, you know, somebody that for me, I’m in my early 40s. And if you would have said 15 years ago, we would be where we are talking on this podcast. I would be surprised and yet, in the last five years, I think, why aren’t we making more progress? You know, so I think it’s, I bet you guys experienced that a lot to. Ethan, I’m interested in your time at GW Pharma, what was your takeaway and kind of, what would you say to listeners wondering about your opinion on the CBD market in general and what you see there going forward?
ER: Right?
RS: Talk about fits and starts. There’s been a bunch there.
ER: Sure. Well, you know, GW was one of the main drivers behind research and subsequent development of cannabidiol as medicine. So, it’s great to have a role in that, but when I see what it’s become, basically, we’re dealing with a market which is akin to the Wild West. On the one hand, I’d like to be able to see people be innovative without unnecessary restrictions, but on the other hand, it is almost impossible for the consumer to know what they’re getting. Also, what we’ve seen is a profusion of single molecule preparations.
In other words, somebody will put out something that has a little bit of CBD in it, and they managed to sell it, but we really have a situation of inadequate quality control in the industry. I would like to see better labeling and self policing of the industry. I think that it’s necessary for a point-of-sale to have a complete analysis along with safety data for anything that a consumer would want to purchase. And that applies to the recreational as well as the medicinal market.
RS: Yeah, yeah. Dale, I’m curious – going back to cannabis and before, I want to hear the story – the origin story of Breeder’s Best how you guys got together? I’m curious Dale if you have an opinion on best growing practices for cannabis.
DH: Well, you know, just like everything else in the industry, I think so much of it depends on the nature of the plant that you have in your hand, so that you have an opportunity to grow. One thing I’ve really learned from our team at Breeder’s Best is that you can’t look at a at a plants certificate of analysis, you can’t look at a plant on paper and say, more than that looks interesting, that has great potential. You also have to learn how that plant will perform in an indoor grow, or in an outdoor grow, whether it’s grown in soil regeneratively, or whether it’s grown in pots. And one thing we know for sure, from talking with a lot of Breeder’s is that different plants have different preferences, so to speak.
There is – in some cases some plants are resilient enough and easy enough to manage that they will grow well under all kinds of circumstances. And yeah, just in this past week, I’ve spoken with Breeder’s who have different varieties that definitely perform best aquaponically while other varieties do fantastically well in the ground to dry farm setting. And so, I think there is just no one size fits all in this industry because the plant is so – there’s so much different genetic potential and diversity in the plant, even though that – much of that diversity is lacking in commercially available cannabis that I don’t think there will ever be one optimal way of growing all cannabis varieties.
RS: Yeah, I think that makes sense. As any living thing, I think it’s impossible to have a one size fits all approach for anything that’s alive. That sounds right. So, talk to us about how you guys came together and had this idea for Breeder’s Best and explain to us a little bit about that.
DH: Ethan I’ll start and then you can give your version of it. So, I, as I got deeper into the industry, I met many plant Breeder’s who knew that I, as a plant scientist, and as a patent attorney, I could help them with protecting the intellectual property around what they had created. And I had a lot of conversations that went something like this, I have something special. I know you’re an attorney, and you can help me protect it. Let’s do that. And then of course, I would say, yeah, I can do that, I can definitely help you. But then there was still no pathway toward them succeeding commercially.
And I didn’t really want to take their money to get them a patent and then have that patent sit on the wall and not do them any good. And so, I noticed that, that there was a need for helping plant Breeder’s not only protect what they have, but find the right commercial relationships because, you know, I’d say most of the plant Breeder’s that I’ve met, either don’t want to have to start a small business, they don’t want to have to identify potential licensees that they want to focus on their creative art, which is developing new varieties of cannabis. And so, after several conversations like this, and talking with people in the industry about my idea, I got a lot of encouragement that I really should pursue it. And so, kind of the general model that we hatched that I came up with was analogous to a music label.
And it’s only analogous. There’s some real differences, but you know when you look at a music label or a so called record company, there’s a creative person that is great writing songs or performing songs, they don’t want to have to do the legal work, they may not be interested in marketing. They don’t want to try to produce actual sound recordings and so on. They just want to focus on what they’re good at and what they love doing. And the record company takes it from there and brings their art out to a market that’s interested in it.
In a very similar manner, our goal is to work with Breeder’s who are the creative engine. We essentially tap into all of this Crowdsource creativity that has decades of experience – each one of which has, in most cases, decades of experience breeding the plant, and they have all kinds of wonderful things they’ve created. And then our goal is just to find the right relationships with them. Well, first of all, protect the intellectual property. We’re good at that. We make sure that in contrast with record companies, they will always own their intellectual property.
We’re not trying to aggregate ownership of any intellectual property of things that the Breeder’s create. We can protect the intellectual property, but they will own it. And we act as their exclusive licensee. And we even only retain our exclusivity, as long as we can do a good job of bringing that plants to market, bringing those plants to market and breeding, bringing revenues to the Breeder’s. So, that’s the model that I was kind of kicking around in my head when I went to a meeting in late 2018 that Ethan was speaking at. I was on a panel. Ethan was speaking later that same day or the next day and my goal, I had been an admirer of Ethan’s work and my goal was to just introduce myself to him and hope that I could get a few minutes with him.
And instead right – as I came off the stage from speaking on my panel, Ethan’s colleague approached me and said that – asked if I would be willing to have dinner with her and Ethan and I could, I was shocked, but of course, I said yes. And then at dinner, we talked about this idea, and there was an instant synergy, and it’s been fantastic. We’ve had a lot of conversations about it. It took us a while to get this fully formed and off the ground, but that’s – that was kind of my end of the experience.
ER: Well, yeah, I was going to tell a parallel story. Dale said, we were both attending this conference a couple of years ago, and when we heard Dale speak, I turned to Nishi Whiteley, my business partner and said, we’ve got to work with this guy. And it took us another year for concepts that gel, but basically, we’ve assembled a team of people who are great at what they do and again, we’ve got this set up in a way that I really think we’re covering the basis and that we’ve got Dale’s expertise in molecular biology and his legal expertise and his patenting expertise. My forte if you will, is, knowing what our targets are, what the pharmacology of the different components of cannabis are, and hoping to find those.
So then, they’ve got to be tested in the field. As Dale mentioned, we’re planning field trials for the Select Chemovars that we find. And then it’s a matter of helping with the marketing. So, at each level, we have someone that deal with the different echelons of activity and hopefully it’s going to lead to great things.
RS: When I heard about it, I thought it was such a cool idea. And I was – it’s one of those ideas that it’s such a cool idea, you’re like, wow, I’m surprised that hasn’t been done before. I’m surprised nobody’s doing that. One of the things I love about it is, Dale, what you mentioned about the grower being an artist, you know, and I love – something that I’ve learned about following the cannabis industry is, a lot of people are getting into the business side of things that really have – maybe have no business being in the business side of things, and I think investors were seeing that all the time, you know, companies fold and making foolish choices and, you know, onerous debts and things like that. But I think something that you guys are doing are helping those growers those artists and find a, you know, a path to profit, as it were. So, I think it’s really interesting, how do growers find you? Do you agree to work with any grower? Are there certain qualifications that they need to meet or depending on their strains or?
DH: The way we do this, we welcome any submission from any Breeder. We have a place on our website, where that a Breeder can click on and take a brief, pretty user friendly survey to describe what they have and the work that they’ve done. And, you know, the general ancestry of the plant that they’ve made, and they can attach a chemical analysis of the plant if they have it. And then this is where, you know, I’m excited about the idea for this company, but the strength of the company really is in the team. Because, you know, we take these submissions that come through our website, and then imagine this, we have a meeting as often as we need to.
Schedule for weekly, and if we have new submissions, and we look at them, but we’ve got Dr. Ethan Russo looking at the chemical analysis and saying, oh, this is interesting, because look at these terpenes, and he can look at a chemical analysis and see things that very few people would be able to see. And then we’ve got Rob Clark, who is the preeminent ethnobotanist in cannabis who will look at the ancestry and say, okay, this is interesting because of this. And then we’ve got Rob’s longtime colleague, Mojave Richmond, who is head of our kind of plant validation and research, who can identify for us where he thinks that type of plant might be likely to grow well, but he’s also already got the wheels turning in his head to think about how we will test grow this and so on.
So, at that point, we’ve got truly world experts evaluating a submission. And if we find that it’s something that looks like it would be something we would want to test grow then we have a process of well typically we schedule a phone interview with the, with the Breeder and learn more about the plant, get more information if we can, but then eventually this goes into a test grow in a lot of different settings where the growers agree to share with us their – basically the conditions under which they grow it. And anyway, from that, we are able to pick the varieties that not only look good on paper, but perform fantastically as production crops and we know how they grow because as I said before, there’s no one way, one best way to grow all different kinds. You’ve got to really dial in on what works for that variety.
So, bottom line to answer your question, we welcome all submissions from all Breeder’s. The ones that look most promising, we will put into a test grow. The ones that do best, we will put into production, and then of course, this is subject to making sure that the geography of the breeder, and the geography of our available test grow partners, and the local regulatory hurdles and the other regulatory hurdles are all compatible with this. So, this is the model that I have extreme – I’m very proud of this of the way that our team has worked together to develop this approach.
It’s all going to be it – the way we bring this out to multiple states and to multiple countries will be dependent upon the way that the regulatory environment changes. Our initial focus will be California test growing, California production, but we’re absolutely not going to stop there. We’re definitely thinking globally.
RS: And how much does COVID affect things? I mean, especially when talking about different countries and stuff.
DH: Well, that’s a good question. I would just say that, you know, our team is – they’re members of our team. Right now. Rob Clarke is in Sweden. We were on the phone with him just earlier. We were on a Zoom call with him just earlier today. Ethan is in Seattle. I’m in San Diego. Nishi is in San Antonio. We’ve got people on the team in Florida. So, we are we have been doing multiple Zoom calls every week, getting this business started. And because we are so dispersed, it hasn’t really disrupted our normal operations at all.
Now, I was on the phone yesterday with a distributor in California who told me about all the precautions that he takes to deliver products to nursery or to dispensaries and so on, but, you know, the industry and COVID has shown us that the cannabis industry and cannabis workers have gone from being illegal to essential in a very short time. And so, we are very optimistic that by taking the proper precautions, and the way that our team has already set up to function, that this is something that won’t really have a big impact on us, and it demonstrates certainly the being in a pandemic, demonstrates the need for good – for better medicine. And that’s what we’re all about.
RS: What are you guys excited about when you’re seeing applicants come in? Have you been excited by genetics that you haven’t seen before or different takes that you haven’t seen before? How has that been for you? And I guess, in general, what are you both excited about in the field of genetics?
ER: Well, I’ll start there. Yeah, you know, again, as I mentioned, I’ve had certain biochemical targets in mind. We’re interested in the so called minor cannabinoids. You know, they’re minor to people that don’t know about them, but again, there’s tremendous potential. I’ll just mention Cannabigerol, CBG, which is sort of the parent molecule of the other cannabinoids. Normally the plant doesn’t stop there. It’s sort of a high throughput machine and goes on to THC, CBD, or sometimes CBC, but CBG is great potential medicine in its own right.
It’s got unique anti anxiety effects without being sedating, and without being addictive, so it’s quite, quite distinct from any of the pharmacological approaches currently available for anxiety. At the same time, it’s got a remarkable affinity in treating prostate cancer, which there’s just tons of and all the cannabinoids have the capability of killing cancer cells without being toxic to normal cells. So, it’s just a unique concept. So, that’s just one example.
Additionally, through this work, we’ve come across some genuine landraces. For people not familiar with the term, a landrace is a type of cannabis that’s been grown in an area for many generations. So, it’s absolutely attuned to the soil, the predators, and often as unique properties. Around the world and traditional cannabis growing areas, a lot of the landraces have been most to seeds from California or Holland, and this is one of the major factors in this sort of restriction of the gene pool, and the homogeneity we see in current cannabis and commerce, but again, we’d like to have the opportunity to just develop new varieties that express high amounts of one of these minor cannabinoids or particular terpenoid components, but at the same time to have a line of landraces.
So people in my vintage, which is to say, old, remember cannabis has been very different to what’s available today. And in some respects, even though in general, it’s not as potent as what’s available today. There was much more diversity, say 30 or 40 years ago in what was available in terms of the effects on the biochemical profiles. And so, we need to, again, diversify what’s available, and help people to understand and have available, the full panoply of what cannabis can do therapeutically and biochemically and industrially.
We shouldn’t ignore that aspect. We need to keep in mind that this is a plant that’s not only medicine, but supplies fiber for our clothing and for industry. There are many industrial applications that really haven’t gotten a lot of attention, again due to prohibition and the roadblocks to research that have remain in place for decades.
DH: Yeah. And I would just add that when we talk about cannabis, we are talking about the botanical genus cannabis, which definitely includes hemp, as well as what has traditionally been referred to as marijuana. And so, if we’re going to draw the line based upon the THC level, we are absolutely interested in being on both sides of that line. One reason is that there are so many, as Ethan mentioned, there are so many things that you can do with hemp, and there’s such a Worldwide demand for hemp that if we have a Breeder that has developed something that has special properties that qualifies as industrial hemp in the U.S., it will also make it much easier for us to do some licensing into other countries, right away.
I was just on a call earlier this week with the – well let’s see. I guess it was last week with the Chamber of Commerce of Quito, Ecuador about their cannabis regulations and their cannabis that they define anything above or below 1% THC as being legal hemp. And so, you know, I think that’s the same case in New Zealand and quite a few other countries. So, as we look at opportunities to help a Breeder really leverage their work and put it into a lot of markets with great demand, and to make a difference in those parts of the world, hemp will be an earlier, scalability opportunity, but we believe that the regulatory barriers are going to come around – come down all around the world and that the things that are more medicinally focused or that have where you’re kind of agnostic about the particular chemical profile, as long as it’s a good one, as long as it does a lot of benefit, then we believe that there will be great worldwide licensing opportunities for all these different things that gets submitted to us.
RS: In terms of weighing in on the availability of cannabis, as you just mentioned worldwide, and that the regulations are going to come down, do you think that’s affected by the global recession/depression that we’re in, or do you think because of people’s minds changing science coming out, research coming out? Or would you say it’s a marriage of both?
ER: Well, certainly there’s been an inhibition, but as Dale mentioned, for instance, I’ve worked remotely for 17 years. I’ve got a number of projects going around the world and all my colleagues are still working. That doesn’t mean it’s easy, but we’re managing. One has to consider the obstacles that we’re facing. We’ve got COVID restricting movement, particularly in this country. Additionally, we have the roadblocks to research that have occurred in this country that are not as stringent elsewhere.
I think it’s necessary to have a real international focus and realize that some things can be done where you are right now. Hopefully that will change in the future, but we are – there are a lot of creative people in this industry. And there’s always a way to try and keep momentum moving.
DH: In addition, there are great plant breeder’s all over the world. We certainly are very proud of the ones that are our neighbors here in California, but we’ve already had submissions from multiple states and even multiple countries. And so it’s entirely possible that we could get a submission from some part of the world that where it’s local regulations, and the regulations where the demand is high for that kind of a variety that that could be an entirely international IP protection as well as an international licensing transaction. And in my practices, as a patent attorney, I’ve obtained IP rights for plants in at least 30 different countries and done international licensing transactions in probably about the same number of countries.
So, we are definitely poised to work with Breeder’s all over the world, and protect their IP all over the world, and help them get their great work into markets all over the world, and you know, it will be a moving target with the changes in regulatory requirements. But one thing I’ve learned from talking with people in a lot of different states and countries is that once you embrace the cannabis industry as a local or national government, you see the benefits that it brings in terms of tax revenues and employment. And basically, if you’re open to it, you also see that the health benefits to your populace and it’s – I don’t know of anyone who really thinks that this industry will backtrack. It is on a one way path, and it may be a bumpy path, but it’s on a one way path towards more openness and more acceptance.
RS: Yeah, I would hope so. I’m surprised what you said Ethan that there’s less variety now, that there’s less diversity in genetics right now than there was 30 years ago. I would have thought the opposite because of what Dale just said that we’re on this, you know, upward trajectory that we’re going forward, but at the same time, yeah, the regulations have been onerous and misplaced. Why do you think they have been so you know, anti research and development in cannabis in America?
ER: Well, I think it’s a byproduct of this anti-scientific bias that we’ve seen throughout our society. Some of its just inertia, on the subject of cannabis, science is known about its possibilities for decades. The public is now on board. Politicians tend to be older setting their ways and things have changed. You know, certainly with younger politicians, I think that there’s an understanding that this needs to change, but, you know, there have been restrictions due to the international treaties, those are falling by the wayside, but it’s going to be a slow, slow progress, I believe. But I agree with Dale that the momentum is inexorable at this point. So, it’s a matter of when, not if.
RS: And what do you think happens to the pharma industry? The further that cannabis develops itself and becomes known as a medicine to so many people to, you know, the general public and displaces a lot of people’s need and belief in the pharmaceutical industry. What’s your view there?
ER: Oh, great question very complex. In the past, I would have said that there was a misperception that pharma was interfering with cannabis commerce, but we’ve seen too many examples recently of that specific thing having occurred including contributions to defeat ballot measures and things of this sort. There are three echelons of cannabis activity, pharmaceutical development, which has already established their two cannabis based medicines, Sativex and Epidiolex, which are available on the market, just Epidiolex in the U.S., but Sativex is approved in 30 countries outside of the U.S.
So there’s going to be bad. And that is a necessary ingredient. There are many physicians that will not accept any other form of cannabis for their patients because they require that proof of safety, efficacy, and consistency that represents a medicine, but there’s a fourth block that gets ignored. And that’s accessibility. It’s not a medicine if people can’t get it. We have examples here. California, plenty of offerings, but in some states, there’s almost nothing. Idaho, for example, but the other echelons of activity are the artisanal growers. And then they’ll be the supplement type products. An example being all the profusion of CBD products.
I think that any aspect of the industry that tries to ignore the others or think that they can crowd them out or prohibit them, it’s making a big mistake. There are always going to be these three echelons of activity whether they’re legal or gray market or whatever. And I think that everyone will be better off when we realize that we need a peaceful coexistence between the three.
RS: Yeah, so there’s not, you know, you’re saying there’s nothing to fear, there’s room for everybody to do their best work?
ER: Well, there’s plenty to fear, but it comes about from prohibitions, and on the one hand, but again, responsibility has to be part of the equation. And I, again, I’ve been a real critic of the industry for lack of quality control, on lack of safety measures, it seems that most companies will not do what is needed unless it’s absolutely mandated and this would specifically apply to things like pesticide testing, and avoidance of pesticides. So, you know, I’m all about safety. And it’s just a necessary ingredient to medicine or for any, anything that people are going to utilize and just smoke whatever it is.
RS: Do you think the fact that cannabis has been deemed essential kind of shifts the paradigm for people to, I mean, I know that we’re in a place already where there’s …
ER: Sure, we need more of that.
RS: Yeah. But do you think it pushes it even further into the forefront in terms of more responsible regulations, more progressive regulations quicker?
ER: One hopes, but again, we have to remember who makes the rolls and most politicians aren’t versed in all the science behind this. So, we need people that are willing to listen, willing to be educated, willing to change their minds, and there hasn’t been a lot of that on the legislative part of our government. So, one can always hope.
RS: Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, Dale and Ethan before we go, what would you like to leave listeners with?
DH: I think I would just like to share my great hope that in the future, the people who have worked for decades with the plant is self taught Breeder’s who have devoted themselves to making great cannabis varieties, that they will finally really have a seat at the table of this large and growing industry, and that patients will benefit by having access to a greater variety of really special cannabis and that independent small growers can participate in that kind of ecosystem by growing the kinds of plants that are well suited to – genetically well suited to the way they grow, and that are a good match for the demands that are out there.
And that, patients all around the world can enjoy the benefits of what Breeder’s have developed. Without a worldwide licensing scheme, they would just never really have good access to, and that if this is done, right, which we and we will do, it’s going to benefit a lot of different stakeholders. And that’s what we’re so excited about.
ER: And I would merely add that, once again, we’ve only begun to scratch the surface of the potential of this plant therapeutically and industrially. They’re great things to come. We just need the means to pursue and investigate deeper all the gifts that this plant offers.
RS: Yes, well said, Well, I’m excited to see what we have coming down the pike in terms of all the different, you know, developments, we have to look forward to. Dale and Ethan, I really appreciate you guys coming on the show today, explaining a lot about cannabinoids and how they can help us, how they can improve so many different things for people, really fascinating to talk to you.
I did just want to get your opinion on one thing because I was talking to a grower a couple months ago, and he was talking to me about like ancient growing practices in different parts of the world. I’m curious if you guys are talking to growers in different parts of the world? Do you see things that are unique to specific locations and temperatures that can be extended in other words that people were doing in one area that you think can be implemented in others and kind of keep growing and extending that knowledge share?
ER: Oh, absolutely. This is an incredibly versatile plant that’s able to self adapt to a variety of climates and conditions. And I again have been doing this for 24 years. There’s not a day goes by that I don’t learn something new about the potential and versatility of cannabis.
RS: Well, Dale and Ethan, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time.
ER: A pleasure. Thank you.
DH: Likewise. Thank you.
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